[Danielle Balocca]: Hey listeners, this is Danielle. And Shelley. Shelley is a radical Dravidian and racial equity activist.
[Chelli Keshavan]: And Danielle is a community mobilizer and changemaker. And this is the Medford Bites podcast. Every two weeks, we chew on the issues facing Medford and deliver bites of information about the city by lifting the expertise of our guests.
[Danielle Balocca]: Join us in discussion about what you hope for the future of Medford. And as always, tell us where you like to eat. All right, thank you both for meeting with me this afternoon. If you could just start out by introducing yourself, so your name pronouns and who you are.
[Micah Kesselman]: Sure, I'll go first. So I am Micah Shalom Kesselman is usually how I go about go by when I'm talking about this particular topic. My pronouns are he, him. I've been a Medford resident for a good bit. And I am here with sort of representing Medford for Palestine, actually.
[Josh Ekhart-Lee]: I'm Josh Eckert-Lee. I use he, him pronouns. I lived in Medford for just over a year now. And I'm an organizer in part with Medford for Palestine, but also involved with other relevant groups across the city.
[Danielle Balocca]: Thank you. So I think we're just going to get right into it. You know, I know you both are here to talk a little bit about the ordinance in front of the city council. That's called Medford values aligned local investment ordinance. So yeah, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about maybe a little bit about Medford for Palestine, but then also kind of what you want us to know about all the work that you're doing.
[Josh Ekhart-Lee]: Sure. Yeah. So. What we've been working on for the last few months has been working to make sure that our tax dollars as Medford residents aren't going to harmful industries. While we organize as a group for Medford for Palestine, we bring a multiplicity of perspectives and a recognition of the intersectionality of a lot of these harmful industries. So what's in front of the city council is a proposal to not allow the city to invest in the fossil fuel industry. I come from a background as a climate organizer, so this is really important to me and an effort that I know has been long running in the city. It's also a lack of investment in a prison industrial complex, in weapons manufacturing, and in companies that are profiting off of a wide range of human rights violations. And those are the sort of key elements that we're trying to make sure that you know, the money that we provide to the city isn't invested in ways that hurt residents in Medford and residents like those of us in Medford.
[Micah Kesselman]: Yeah. And if I may, I just want to sort of like jump in there and add a little additional clarification too. So like, you know, like Josh, I'm also involved in a number of different groups and organizations, both within Medford and elsewhere. So, you know, even though this ordinance is really being spearheaded by Medford for Palestine, It does arise out of the extensive effort of a coalition of different groups and demographics within Medford as well. So I just wanted to make sure to mention that because I know that will get brought up and that has tripped up some people in the past that we've talked to, but this really is sort of a coalition effort, not just a coalition effort. It's a Medford coalition effort.
[Danielle Balocca]: Thank you. I guess, you know, I'm wondering, I know that this is something that is the city council is working on as well. And I wonder what you want us to know about that sort of what support you've gotten around this. What resistance you've gotten. So, I.
[Micah Kesselman]: So this ordinance entered drafting, I think, Josh, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think 2024 actually. It started really last year. At the beginning of the year, I think Zach picked it up, Zach Bares picked it up to really put a lot of effort and focus on it in, you know, collaboration with us. And it's been going through review and iterations and drafts and redrafts and discussions for, you know, it went through months and months of that up to the City Council meeting back in June. And even since then has been going through its own sort of, you know, back and forth conversation and talking about it.
[Josh Ekhart-Lee]: Yeah, and this is part of a long history of work, you know, Medford, you know, environmental organizers and Medford folks who care about, you know, the way our money is spent have been working for like a well over a decade on trying to recapture some of these, you know, investments in ways that align with our values and align with the sort of thriving future that we all want to see. So this is very much a continuation of those efforts and an expansion from, you know, what we see already passed in Boston, which was a fossil fuel divestment ordinance, and expands it to recognize that interconnection between these various harmful industries.
[Danielle Balocca]: Maybe just want to like drive the point home, like, how is this important to Medford for Palestine?
[Josh Ekhart-Lee]: Of course. So Medford for Palestine is a group of Medford residents, some of whom are Palestinian, who are organizing consistently to try and provide direct aid to families and friends in Gaza and in Palestine, as well as to bring greater awareness to our neighbors and friends about the critical nature of the genocide that's happening, the active and critical levels of starvation that have been really amplified in the last few weeks. And part of that awareness is a recognition of part of the complicity that we as generally American citizens and particularly as Medford residents have in propping up some of the destruction that happens in Palestine. And part of that is through investment of tax dollars into industries that are profiting off of that. So what we see in the city's public budget is there's a $12 million portfolio that's invested in Lockheed Martin and Chevron, world's largest weapons manufacturer, world's largest fossil fuel emitter. That is something that is taking your tax dollars as a Metro resident and putting them towards the creation of bombs and the destruction of our livable planet. So, Medford residents do care, should care where their money goes. We saw that with the Invest in Medford campaign last fall. And this is another chance to reclaim those tax dollars and spend them more responsibly, more reasonably, and more justly.
[Micah Kesselman]: And the way the ordinance is drafted and what it's aiming for, it absolutely, and of course, is targeting the ongoing genocide and apartheid happening in occupied Palestine. However, it is broad because this is a value that a lot, like I want to say this is a value. I mean, the idea that genocide is bad and And, you know, murder is a bad thing, and apartheid is bad. That's the value that I'm talking about. I think we can all agree, no matter where you are on this ordinance, that, you know, those of us who live in the city of Medford agree that that's at least not a good thing that we should be facilitating in any way. And in any way we can stop facilitating it, we want to do that. But sort of back to my starting point, the phrasing of it captures more than just what's happening in Palestine. does go after any human rights abusers, anyone engaged in, there's a long list of examples And it's non-exhaustive, but the one that has put it into the amended ordinance is that, you know, killings, physical abuse, displacement, or other rights violations, confinement, forced labor, human rights violations based on racial, gender, or LGBTQ plus identity, war crimes, crimes against humanity, apartheid, genocide, ethnic cleansing, illegal occupation, and complicity with such actions by governments or other parties. So it isn't just Palestine, though that is unquestionably the biggest example of it in... right now and really in living memory, I would say. But you do, I mean, this would bring into review relationships with other countries like, you know, Myanmar had a genocide, still has it, arguably. What's going on in Yemen and the complicity of Saudi Arabia in Yemeni genocide also falls directly within the scope of this. Sudan falls within the scope of this. Increasingly, what's going on in India falls within the scope of this. This is not just about so-called, and I just use this phrasing because I know that this is what we have run into and this is what we're going to see. This isn't just about Israel and Israel's actions, not picking on Israel, but it is absolutely trying to decouple any support that we are giving these horrific, egregious actions that are being done by state actors and companies that are facilitating it as much as possible. And it just so happens that right now, I would say Israel is getting special protection. So.
[Danielle Balocca]: Well, and so the question that I've heard, you know, posed to like city councilors is, you know, and I think to me, it's like sort of clear in how you're saying this, but why is this something that A city council should be involved in, like, why, why is this a, why is this an issue for local government?
[Micah Kesselman]: I can take the 1st bite of this 1. so, yeah, this is something that I've spoken to a couple of times in past council meetings to. Fundamentally, at the very base of it, all politics is local, especially in a nation and city where we come from all over the globe, have family members everywhere. There is not, unless there's a large cohort of, you know, original Missittook people's living in Medford, which maybe there are, I don't know, but the overwhelming majority of us in Medford come from, you know, somewhere else in our history. But beyond that, our values apply globally. We live in a global world, we live in a global economy, we live in a global society. So, you know, anything we do, even at the local level, that has global repercussions, global impacts, you know, we should It is my opinion that we should do what we can to make those impacts match what our values are. We wouldn't be okay with the city of Everett engaging in a genocide. right? And we would probably say, hey, we don't want any company supporting Everett engaging in a genocide to be getting any of our tax dollar investment. So why is it any different if it's, you know, instead of Everett, it's Israel or anywhere else? You know, they're all part of our common shared humanity. I'm not picking on Everett. Everett's a lovely place.
[Josh Ekhart-Lee]: Everett is a lovely place. Yeah, I don't mean to get them catching strays, but it's not just like a platitude that we are all like citizens of the world. By the very nature of our current investments that city council has a jurisdiction over, we are currently investing Medford tax dollars into these global businesses causing global harms, right? whether or not this ordinance is seen as the right path for folks, city council already has a complicit stake in the fiduciary responsibility of the city and its tax dollars. So this isn't us dragging the city into a global issue. The city by nature of its global investments is already there. And so we are like responding to that reality with a similar, you know, very realistic and hopefully responsible approach that recognizes that and tries to steer our tax dollars to things that matter.
[Micah Kesselman]: And I just want to make one more addition to that is, you know, this is like a pet peeve of mine, too, because we've gotten this question a lot and it drives me kind of crazy. So I have a lot of opinions, but I'll keep it to this one last one. Like Josh said, our finances are invested globally to one degree or another. They have an international impact and footprint. And so they are an expression of our sort of international reach as much as that is. If there are others in the city who agree that this isn't enough, great, mazel tov, we agree. I would love to do more. you know, help sponsor an ordinance to send a flotilla to Palestine. That would be dope. We would be in support of that. There is absolutely more we can do. But what we can't do is nothing, because doing nothing would be an awful crime and unconscionable. So this is at least the little something we can do with the little amount of power that we are given in our local governance.
[Danielle Balocca]: So for folks who are just like sort of making this connection by listening to this, like, how can they be involved? How can they express support?
[Josh Ekhart-Lee]: Of course. So if they are interested specifically in like realigning the, you know, city's investments with their like values of shared humanity and sustainability, and hopefully like being anti-weapons as so many of us are, they can show up and support this ordinance. It's being heard on Tuesday, August 5th. at the city council, that will be its official first reading, where there will be plenty of opportunities for public comment. I think that'll be a great space for anyone who cares about any of these specific industries, you know I serve the city as a volunteer on the Medford Energy and Environment Committee. that committee, you know, is guided by the city's Climate Action and Adaptation Plan, which really highlights the linkages between our financial systems and our natural environment and the way that those financial systems have destroyed that environment. And so there are a lot of environmental activists and people who just care about sustainability who have already come out and shown support for an ordinance like this. So if, you know, you think as you generally, that the issue of human rights and genocide feels too thorny and too complex, but you are seeing, you know, the really real and on the ground impact that we're seeing by climate destruction. I would support this because it divests us from fossil fuels. If you're seeing the impact of, you know, ice raids in Medford, right? We saw those Domino's delivery guys get taken just blocks from my house on Main Street, like, That is propping up the private prison industry. If you think that's shitty and we shouldn't be supporting that industry, you should come out and vote and speak your mind positively about this ordinance because we want to divest from prisons. If you or someone you love has been a victim of gun violence, I don't know anyone who I grew up with who hasn't personally been affected by that because that's such a critical and unresolved issue in this country. the opportunities to reclaim our small bit of responsibility in trying to shift towards a more sustainable world.
[Danielle Balocca]: Thank you. I guess I'm wondering if there's anything else. I think we've talked about sort of the content of the ordinance that the meeting is happening on Tuesday to discuss this. Anything else that you want people to know about it? Yeah.
[Micah Kesselman]: There's a few things that I think that, you know, in the, in the past city council meetings. A few things have been brought up and some of them actually legitimate concerns and in good faith, which I think it's important that we sort of get a chance to address here. The other ones. not so much legitimate, not so much in good faith, but I still think we should be sure to address them. So, you know, we talked a little bit about how this is coming from within Medford. This arises out of a coalition of residents and groups. within the city. We talked a little bit about, you know, how each of the things that are covered in the ordinance, even though they don't directly affect us and we don't directly engage with them, are nevertheless things that we are tacitly supporting by allowing our money to be invested into them. You know, one of the other things I just want to make sure that we do talk about, though, is that from my fiduciary perspective, because this has come up quite a bit with varying degrees of faith, I would say, this The ordinance, the draft on it was is modeled on ordinances, similar ordinances in other cities across the country that have actually gone into effect. And we've seen the outcome of having this values aligned restriction on tax money investment. And at the end of the day, it doesn't have any real negative impact on the city's portfolios and the portfolio's performance. The cities that have put this into effect, Dearborn, Michigan, I think Portland is another one, Portland, Oregon. Yeah. And Boston's implementation of the fossil fuels component, either it hasn't been shown to underperform compared to its non-restricted cohort, or in some cases, not the usual, so don't expect it, but in some cases it has outperformed. So from a fiduciary duty as regards, you know, performance of our municipal accounts, this is kind of a no-brainer because it's not an issue. And, you know, for those people who are still concerned about it, because I'm sure we will still get these comments in City Council on Tuesday, I invite them to provide concrete, discrete data points of where this type of ordinance has resulted in a city being financially harmed in any measurable way. If they can provide that, great. And then, you know what? we can go ahead and look at ways to amend to avoid those particular issues. Because keep in mind, when this gets voted in on Tuesday, it is going through multiple readings, and every single reading provides another opportunity to put an amendment. That's just how our process works in the city of Bedford. There's three more readings. So there will be months of time to discuss and further if you think that's the case. So that sort of gets to another point that I just wanted to make is, again, like if you see issues with it, but you agree with the intent and you agree with the spirit of the ordinance, the multiple reading process is there just for that sort of situation where it can be amended and adjusted and tweaked. So you should you know, if you agree with the intent, then you should support its passing and then support amending it so that we can make it as strong as it possibly can be. I will say that, you know, personally right now, I, I will fully admit, I was very unhappy with some specific Councilors when this was first introduced and they brought a what I at that time would have considered an unnecessary delay. Nevertheless, I am very impressed with Zach and my fellows in the Medford for Palestine group that's working on this and how they have used the time to strengthen and really tighten up the ordinance and make it into what I consider to be one of the stronger ordinances I've actually seen presented at city council for a vote. So it's in a really good state right now, but it can still be changed and improved. Everything can be improved.
[Josh Ekhart-Lee]: So that's it for me. Thanks, Micah. I think that the message boils down to we are your neighbors trying to do something that feels right and good. We are trying to engage with this in a good faith and well-spirited way. And we would really encourage everyone who has whatever range of views on this issue to do the same. Anyone who goes to these city council meetings where thornier geopolitical subjects comes up knows to expect it to be a long meeting and often like quite a contentious one and that is like not the intention. Get past and trying to see our city do a pretty small pretty early stage step towards trying to align the way the city acts with the values that we uphold. So it's just a request to engage in this in good faith and with the spirit of collaboratively trying to build a better ordinance. Because that's what we've been doing in the month since this was first heard at city council. And that's not necessarily what's been seen by some other folks. I really want to emphasize how you know, excellent and disciplined. Our city council members have been, even as they've been flooded with thousands of emails from outside groups from across the country, from across the world saying like, no, no, no, this is tantamount to, you know, major anti-Semitism, which, which like, we really don't believe that to be the case. You know, we are trying to go and talk to our neighbors. We've been really trying to engage actively and, and with, with intention here. and want to make sure that everyone involved is safe and, you know, engaging with this in an open and honest way.
[Danielle Balocca]: So I just want to just circle back to what your mic has said and to kind of explain it maybe a little bit more simply for people. So it sounds like you, what you're saying is to divest from these like Chevron Lockheed Martin that are facilitating awfulness all across the world would have No negative impact to the city financially we wouldn't lose money. I'm wondering what the timing would be so like let's say this ordinance pass like what's the timing of like divesting from these from these certain companies and investing in ones that maybe are more responsible.
[Micah Kesselman]: Assuming that the mayor signs off on it, but even if she doesn't, that just basically means that there's like a 10-day lag on it going into effect. But as soon as it gets entered into the city's laws, it should go into operation. I'm actually really glad you brought this up because that does segue into another point that I wanted really to make sure that we talked about, and that is the feasibility and the practicality of this. And that sort of goes hand in hand with the financial impact. There's not going to be a huge deleterious financial impact if any real noticeable impact whatsoever. There's also been this ongoing concern, I'll say, of is our treasurer competent enough to put this ordinance into effect? And the answer is, Unequivocally, yes. This is very straightforward to put into effect. In fact, because of that conversation and some follow-up conversations that Zach had with the administration, the current draft of the ordinance includes guidelines and a model to follow. for investing as well that targets the specific issues that we're concerned about. And the ordinance also has a way of updating that guidance and guidelines going forward on an annual basis and also within the initial period. And I also did see Josh's comment, and I will quickly correct that, that it will go into effect at the end of the calendar year.
[Josh Ekhart-Lee]: is when so the ordinance language as written asks for like a report given to city council 120 days after it passes just to like give a sense of where the treasurer is in her process and the intention set forth in the ordinance is for these funds to be divested from these industries and to be following this like sustainable investment guide. That's like a nationally known financial sort of sustainable investing model by the end of this year. So, you know, we can really reasonably see a pretty fast turnaround because this is like, this is a financial transaction or like issue. It's, there's not a deep, long, necessary review process. It's, it's pretty actionable. And to highlight Mike's point, like Treasurer is excellent. I'm a public employee. I know a lot of the public employees in Medford. They're all trying to do their jobs well, and they're all super competent at them. The updates to this ordinance that give that model make their jobs a little bit easier, even as this ordinance adds one additional step to their already pretty intense workload. everyone in all departments is overworked and understaffed. And we recognize that, which is why it's really important to us that we have the data and there is tons and tons of empirical studies showing that sustainable investment is not a financial risk. Portfolios perform just as good as or slightly better. Certainly, if you take a longer time view, as so many investment firms and insurance firms do, investing in fossil fuels that are actively destroying our communities is not in line with our fiduciary responsibility. So we see these longer term investments already naturally divesting themselves from these disruptive industries. So this is just like being early adopters on that train.
[Danielle Balocca]: And I'm wondering, so for people listening who maybe have their own investments in some of these companies that maybe are doing more harm than good at this point, are there, where, how do we find this guy? Like, how can you, what can you suggest for like individual investors?
[Josh Ekhart-Lee]: Absolutely. That's a, that's great. Yeah. You know, a lot of us have retirement funds. A lot of us have our own, you know, our stocks. You can use the MSCI ESG fund, which is a lot of letters, but ESG is going to be your key kind of acronym that stands for environmental social governance. And that's the kind of social impact type funds that you'll see. One of the big ones is a Vanguard social index fund. And again, that is a large index fund that has been specifically screened to remove these deleterious industries. can also, if you're specifically concerned about your investments going and supporting the active genocide, you can go to the American Friends Service Committee and their work specifically targeting and identifying organizations that are profiting off of genocide worldwide, specifically happening in Palestine. So those are some really useful and very user-friendly tools.
[Micah Kesselman]: Thank you. Yeah, and if your retirement savings are invested through like Empower, which I think almost like everyone I know has their... Empower is the manager or whatever it's called. I'm not like an investment guy, so I don't know too much about like the specific terminology, but if it's through them, like I do know that they keep Advisors investment advisors on staff specifically to help you navigate this and. I'm sure that they could help you figure out a specific vehicle that they offer that could let you. Do at least what you can to divest where you think it's important to.
[Danielle Balocca]: Thank you. It's all been really helpful information and I don't know how many people. Already knew about this ordinance, so I'm glad to have all this clarification. Any other things that you want us to know about before we wrap up?
[Micah Kesselman]: Yeah, I think, you know, I do want to make one quick additional point that we sort of lost over, but I do think that, you know, as a Jewish person that's been very involved in this and having seen how this conversation around this ordinance has been reframed as this anti-semitism adjacent sort of concern, even though I fundamentally, axiomatically do not think that this in any way is related to anti-semitism. But nevertheless, the reality of the discussions around it is that certain groups have have sort of forced it into this conversation. So I do want to make a, you know, a point to that. And I'll say that, you know, one again, I am Jewish. If you if you couldn't tell by the fact that my first name is Misha Shalom, and my last name is Kesselman, I am very Jewish. I have been involved in the Jewish community and my family has, to a significant degree, literally my entire life and the lives of my forebears for generations before I moved out here to Boston or Medford. And in the first reading, when this first was introduced to city council for a vote, back in June, I entered comments. Some comments I entered on behalf of myself, but I also read in a comment on behalf of the New England chapter of the International Jewish Labor Bund, which fully supports this ordinance. And the only way to, you know, from our perception, and my own perception, and the only way to tie this sort of activity, this idea of divesting from genocidal countries, tie it to a question of antisemitism or concern over antisemitism, is to inextricably link Jewishness to Zionism. And that is dangerous. That's really, really, really dangerous. And Kit's spoken on this more than a few times, too, because they are not the same thing. And by claiming that they are the same thing and engaging in that narrative and developing that narrative, you are in fact engaging in actual antisemitism that puts people's lives in danger, perhaps, because You are normalizing the idea that Jewish people are loyal to Israel first, loyal and unquestioningly loyal to Israel first and foremost before anywhere else, which is crazy and dangerous. And we're seeing that even now happening where You know, where national sentiment is finally shifting away from blind subservience to the Israeli government and what's going on in Israel, as it should, because it's terrible what they're doing now, what they have been doing for half a century or more. if all of a sudden, you know, public sentiment shifts away from that, but nevertheless, everyone is now thinking that Zionism and Jewishness are the same thing, where does that put those of us? You know, most Jews are very progressive, except for a large cohort who are progressive except for Palestine. Hap is a common term to refer to some of these people. You know, where does that put us, right? If all of a sudden, you know, a bunch of people that are loyal first to a country that we're no longer happy with on the other side of the political issue for a bunch of other things. It's a dangerous spot to be in. So, you know, aside from the moral imperative of it is my belief that every Jew to honor your the sacrifice and lives of your forebears and to honor our culture and religious values. You have to stand in solidarity with any oppressed people, no matter where they are, especially when those oppressors are claiming to do it in our name. Beyond that imperative, from a purely self-interested perspective, we need to stop having this conversation of linking anti-Zionism to anti-Semitism and making them the same, because it is, from a purely self-interested perspective, very dangerous. So I just wanted to make sure I talked about that too, because it is something that's been very frustrating to deal with, and it's really hard to get that out in a three-minute or often one-minute time frame at the meeting comment section.
[Josh Ekhart-Lee]: Yeah, absolutely. Right. Like, and we see that across the Boston area, like the most ardent and active organizers that we are working with and we're in solidarity with are Jewish Bostonians, Medfordites, who recognize that like this is being done in their name. They're being kind of labeled as this one monolith that people are not. And, you know, this is about stripping us away from that kind of dehumanizing language that turns us into one massive people. And I think that's the same theory that we've got here with this ordinance, right? Like we've got, you know, these funds that are our Medford tax dollars representing, you know, our investments in the world, going and supporting these industries that I know so many Medfordians like do not support. And this is reclaiming that narrative back for us. And I'll also say like practically, If you want to learn more about the work we do as local organizers with Medford for Palestine, we're really active on Instagram at Medford for Palestine, but this is also a super interdisciplinary and like intersectional issue. If you're interested in, you know, fighting against violence, we are like totally in solidarity with the folks over at Safe Medford who are working and doing work to keep us safe because we know that like it's us as the community to keep ourselves safe. They are working, you know, to put certain, you know, barriers and safeguards in place so that we can all thrive and live. If you are concerned about prisons and about the ICE kidnappings that are happening, the Luce Network locally, there's an ICE watch hotline that you can call, you can volunteer and then get verified to be a local neighborhood watch type person looking out very literally to try and protect your neighbors from the scourge on their streets. If you, like me, are a climate activist and environmental organizer, There are so many groups doing that work locally 350 mass is working on a statewide like making polluters pay campaign really aligning. know, the big financial impact that Americans have across the globe with these major like climate risks and trying to make us more sustainable. So like, I want to highlight just how intersectional this specific ordinances and how intersectional the work is because there's so many things one can do to be more involved. And this ordinance tries to capture some of those key, key industries that have these overlapping impacts.
[Danielle Balocca]: Yeah, Medford has some great community groups to work towards all of these things, and thank you for the other resources as well. I think even for people who have no time or energy to dedicate to any of those groups, supporting this ordinance is also a really helpful way to have an impact.
[Micah Kesselman]: supporting and also just being, you know, even just being aware of those other groups and just being a, I can't think of the word, but being an amplifier for their message, even if it's just passively re-skeeting, I believe it's called now for blue sky, I don't know, whatever, but re-blue sky posting, Instagram, liking, I'm not a social media guy, doing all these whatever things, you know, that, even just that is super helpful and important. And it takes no more time than for you to hit a little button in between doom scrolling.
[Josh Ekhart-Lee]: And we totally recognize the massive pulse on people's time. And so part of that is why we've tried to make it really easy for folks to be engaged and supportive of this work. So if folks go to tinyurl.com slash invest in Medford. We've got a whole toolkit that explains, you know, why investing in these industries is bad gives you a call script if you want to call your, you know, local city Councilors or an email template that you can used to get started and put your own story into, but trying to make it as easy and straightforward for folks, because we know this impacts everyone's pockets and everyone's books. So we're trying to, trying to respect their time, respect their agency and give them as many tools as we can.
[Danielle Balocca]: Well, thank you guys. This was really informative and really helpful and good luck on Tuesday.
[Josh Ekhart-Lee]: Thanks, Daniel. Hopefully we'll see you there.
[Micah Kesselman]: Yeah. Thanks so much. Appreciate it. Yeah. And please, anyone who's listening to this, if you think that you can make, can make it out, you can make it out on zoom, you can make it out in person, give your comments and support. If you have criticism, give those comments to a guest, but do it constructively and maybe get a talk with one of us before, and we can maybe figure out, you know, where that comes from, but if you have, but please, yeah. The more support, the better.
[Danielle Balocca]: Thank you. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. The Medford Bites podcast is produced and moderated by Danielle Balacca and Shelly Kisherman. Music is made by Hendrik Ydernees. We'd love to hear what you think about the podcast. You can reach out to us by email at medfordpod at gmail.com, or you can rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts. Thanks so much for listening. Guys, what's the name of the podcast? Medford Bites. Medford Bites. Go Dodge.